Curse

Tab · Nov 09, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

How's this...

Light Of Deliverance: Elite Signet. 3/4c 5r All party members within earshot and below 80% health are healed for xxx health. For each party member healed this way, you lose 1 energy.

Slightly lower than original cast time, but unaffected by 40/40 sets. Its cost is proportional to how much healing it does. GoLE will not negate energy used.

This is a lesser nerf than what it just got, and a buff in a different sense.

It's not a nerf at all. It's a fair bit harder to dshot, and you can easily heal 1-2 party members with it on charge for next to no energy.
Also, where's the logic in making it a signet?

Kaon · Nov 09, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

*Stuff about there being no lod alternatives.*

People, there are PLENTY of LoD alternatives, here's a list for all of you with a lack of ingame knowledge:

- Heal party (orly?)
- The old aproach: Take selfheals on almost anyone. Perhaps but the most effective but certainly the coolest.
- Hi, my name is Motivation, and while my character keeps throwing spears and owning your face, all partymembers receive heals.
- Life ownz. Recup is bad but is still an alternative.
- Wacky, really bad, approaches: Massive dervishes with order/aegis spam. All stack up and take divine healing. Elementalists with aura of restoration please (see selfheal part).
- Release zhe enchantments.

In other words, with people using a variety of alternatives, and now having a crazy heal in the mainteam, we might actually get a metagame where people arent all at 80% hp and easy to spike down, or where it isn't just a question of diversion/humility/pleak/dshot the healer to teamwipe the opponent.

kvndoom · Nov 09, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibreaktoilets

It's not a nerf at all. It's a fair bit harder to dshot, and you can easily heal 1-2 party members with it on charge for next to no energy.
Also, where's the logic in making it a signet?

The nerf to 2 second cast was obviously to dissuade the heavy dependency on it. Making it a signet instead of a spell prevents fast cast / recharge (except for Fast casting or MoI, which forces a secondary and takes GoLE out of the equation), which forces the 5 second recharge. Since The Divine Favor bonus only applied to the caster, making it a signet doesn't hurt it there much anyway. My logic was making it free to cast, but its true cost depends on how much it heals. If you heal your whole team, then it costs you 8 energy (unlikely, but you see what I mean). If you only heal 3 people, it costs you 3 energy. With Glyph, it cost 0 energy no matter how much healing it did. Maybe keep it at 1 second cast. Again, it's just a suggestion for making it still a useful skill but not as overpowered as it was and also not as dead as it is now.

Granted, the real problem that needs addressing is not LoD, but why LoD is even needed in the first place. Anet has not addressed that yet. They nerfed the cure, not the disease.

Tab · Nov 09, 2007, 06:15 PM // 18:15

If you use Glyph on LoD, you're a retard.

jaeharys targaryen · Nov 09, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Protective was Khaolai!!

STOP PEDDLING THAT SKILL

Captain Robo · Nov 09, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

- Heal party (orly?)
- The old aproach: Take selfheals on almost anyone. Perhaps but the most effective but certainly the coolest.
- Hi, my name is Motivation, and while my character keeps throwing spears and owning your face, all partymembers receive heals.
- Life ownz. Recup is bad but is still an alternative.
- Wacky, really bad, approaches: Massive dervishes with order/aegis spam. All stack up and take divine healing. Elementalists with aura of restoration please (see selfheal part).
- Release zhe enchantments.

Heal Party only fits on a character with the energy to support it (Ether Prodigy Runners). Now that they're forced back into the metagame, we're going to be seeing less utilitarian runners.

[skill]Freezing Gust[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Heal Party[/skill][skill]Extinguish[/skill][skill]Blinding Flash[/skill][skill]Healing Breeze[/skill][skill]Storm Djinn's Haste[/skill][skill]Ether Prodigy[/skill]

Any way you look at it, the SoR Runner had MUCH more personal utility, rather than being an Extinguish-Heal Party workhorse:

[skill]Freezing Gust[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Guardian[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Blurred Vision[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Armor of Mist[/skill][skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill]

Even if it works, I don't feel that sacrificing utility for forced necessity (in that you need to run HP as a LoD substitute) is right.

As for motivation, I'll let you look at the list and decide which one of those skills isn't complete ass. Song of Restoration is easily the best of the lot, and that's not saying much. At any rate it's a waste of an elite.

Life gives 140 health every 20 seconds at 14 Restoration. That's strictly mediocre, on top of the fact that it's never going to last long enough to yield the full bonus. Enemy warriors look at it and see "Free adrenaline!"

I'm not going to address the last two comments, I hope you're joking.

Quote:

In other words, with people using a variety of alternatives, and now having a crazy heal in the mainteam, we might actually get a metagame where people arent all at 80% hp and easy to spike down, or where it isn't just a question of diversion/humility/pleak/dshot the healer to teamwipe the opponent.

Which one of those options is readily available, as to help your team consistently negate mass degeneration in the form of hex/condition spam? How do you stop warriors that rip through your midline, switching targets as they build up adrenaline, then unleash a spike? How do you offer far away teammates at least SOME support?

And because you acknowledge that teams wipe when LoD goes offline, what do you think is going to happen when people don't run LoD to begin with?

Kaon · Nov 09, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

And because you acknowledge that teams wipe when LoD goes offline, what do you think is going to happen when people don't run LoD to begin with?

They wont because now they won't only have the biggest heal in the game on their bar, it's also supercheap quick cast, and great recharge, Woh.

Any combination of for instance 1 or 2 skills below:

Mending refrain (there's other decent motivation skills too that cause partywide heal, but this one stands out), Life, and/or heal party.

It will stop almost any degen, and it isn't easy to shutdown. Combine this with the healer now having a powerspell to be reckoned with, teams will not wipe as easily.

Byron · Nov 09, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Because HP got buffed, you get about a 4/3 ratio of new HP to old HP. I'm toying with the idea that an E/mo might be able to pump out HPs by using glyph rather than e-prod. This would free up an elite, but makes the template more experimental, for sure. Let's assume an e/mo: You need HP, you need speed buff, you need mending touch, you need a way to make red bars go up.

[skill]freezing gust[/skill] [skill]blurred vision[/skill][skill]word of healing[/skill][skill]mending touch[/skill][skill]heal party[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]armor of mist[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill]

The point is, smart heal parties. Buffed target heals should help out with the red bar situation. Maintain some skirmish and healing ability without the fragility of an e-prod bar. Besides, WoH ownzzz.

Or do a scrubby monk runner, scrub.

Captain Robo · Nov 09, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Mending Refrain is a single target spell, and it requires too much mircomanagement to be effective among multiple targets. Why not just use Recuperation if you're going that route? Life requires too much of a time investment for not enough payoff; its *ONLY* 140 health every 20 seconds.

Heal Party will yield much better gains.

Kaon · Nov 09, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Mending Refrain is a single target spell, and it requires too much mircomanagement to be effective among multiple targets. Why not just use Recuperation if you're going that route? Life requires too much of a time investment for not enough payoff; its *ONLY* 140 health every 20 seconds.

Heal Party will yield much better gains.

[skill]Mending Refrain[/skill]

There, read the description. Easily upkeepable on all teammates in range (monks, frontline, midline).

On the topic of Life: First off you're probably not going to use it on a stand character (unless you're making some kind of healbitchbar which is boring). It will probably be on the more conventional rit runner with splinter and stuff.

It heals for 140, which is an incredible amount, it heals EVERYTHING (including npcs, this might be broken) and 140hp/20s is a real lot, you can compare that in old terms of an lod every 10s. It's slightly (yes, slightly, because monks weren't getting lod of every 10s, and when they played against us, they really got it off only rarely) less party wide heal than before, but now that monk has WoH so defense power is the same if not better (since life heals over 80% too).

A 3 second time investment really isn't much for every 20seconds :P.

Oh, and recup is bad. It's MUCH more expensive, heals less, and can be killed easier (in the sense that it has a longer recharge), also it doesn't heal NPCs.

Or if you don't want to take life you can just take heal party on a runner.

I Angra I · Nov 09, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miriandel

I write pages to show you how wrong this statement is.

Not only were most core skills altered, but just have a look at skills people use nowadays (even those altered) and count the core skills...

Like I said, there are of course problem skills (i.e. HEV, Mirror, SP) but there's lots of core skills that still see play. A lot of them have even been nerfed since Proph. So I don't see your point. I didn't write this thread to get into arguments though, so I'll stop there.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 09, 2007, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Like I said, there are of course problem skills (i.e. HEV, Mirror, SP) but there's lots of core skills that still see play. A lot of them have even been nerfed since Proph. So I don't see your point. I didn't write this thread to get into arguments though, so I'll stop there.

There's tons to argue, and you making such a bold statement how nerfing LOD is good for the game and then comparing shit to the days in proph when you probably weren't around is laughable. You failed to make any real correlation between why lod wasn't needed in proh, why HP runner were good in proph, why HP runners aren't so good currently, and why the nerfed LOD is now bad after 4+releases. Then you touched upon how blockway meta+lod was so hard to produce pressure kills, and suggest that the meta packs even more defense on midline chars, aren't we going backwards again?
LOD acted as a character compression, it took the need for a party wide heal off of a support character and on to a monk. It allowed runners to run and defend vs splits. Now if you decide to use that same character for a party wide heal, hes less efficient at defending a base and got forbid he goes out of range now you gotta watch your pushes. Just roll up a few robust/mobile split chars and rape the runner, you'll get boosts, npcs, DP on defenders and maybe even force him to be out of HP range.

Div · Nov 09, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Welcome sineptitude, thumpway, and more broken stuff. Goodbye skill.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 09, 2007, 10:09 PM // 22:09

To be clear - what pushed E/Mo runners out of the metagame wasn't the nerf to Ether Prodigy (which was minor), but the introduction of powerful self-condition removal on splits. Prior to Nightfall, you could send back an E/Mo to defend against a ranger or warrior in your base and keep them from killing NPCs. If you needed to spam Heal Party, you could sit in the backlines and Blind any ranger who pushed up for you. Now, everyone runs Mending Touch, and relying on the other team not to push up and D-shot your 2 second Heal Party is relying on the other team to be retarded.

Trying to replace LoD is futile. You're better off running a few of the shitty party heals spread around your team, so you can stay up just long enough to break the other guy. Or just run sin split.

Phe Belladona · Nov 09, 2007, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Could it be that izzy stimulated 3monk backlines as a wohrunner is incredibly powerful.

WoH>ZB in all ways. The skill is incredible.

hello im the Heal line im filled with stuff you dont really want ^^

hey im the prot line i can stop spikes, remove conditions well, reduce damage significantly and generally quick in doing so - oh btw i can heal like crazy too thanks to ZB

^while WoH may be better at healing than ZB you need to consider the fact its in a line which you really dont like to use.. Prot is a far superior line and while it might not heal as much as WoH that makes ZB better.

dies like fish · Nov 09, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

LoD should've been effectively changed to:
10e, 1c, 5r
Heal all party members for 5...50 health. For each person healed under 80% health, you gain 1 energy.

Oni Firestarter · Nov 09, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Im still not buying this "nightfall" power creep.

So of the examples of nightfall power creep:

Paragons - are three wars builds significantly weaker than dual wars + para builds? The nerf to WY and GFE put a pretty big hit into the Para. I dont know that this paragon neccesitated LoD.

Bsurge? I really dont see these ele bsurge bars pumping out big damage. Strike has pretty much gone by the wayside and the ele bars really aren't doing a ton of damage.

HEV is owning freezing gust and water eles in the face, which is something that only became popular in NF and really to me doesn't evidence power creep.

GoLE rarely ever (possibly in mind blast bars) contributes to offense. For the most part we are seeing GoLE used on defensive casters.

Enchant removal - by that same token - aegis is now easier than ever to run. I dont think inspired and shatter have changed since prophs / factions, and rending touch isn't run a ton (this is before the LoDs nerf where I imagine healer's boon is going to introduce more rending touch). The necro rips never really get used, and I haven't even seen a ton of MoD lately.

When you look at mild nerfs to eviscerate etc and with no one running sups, I just dont see this NF power creep evidenced anywhere but LoD. LoD is the skill that put less emphasis on kiting damage, it put less emphasis on careful frenzy useage. The reason warriors do so much DPs than ever before is because every warrior swaps between frenzy and rush and really, its near impossible to force good warriors out of frenzy until you start spiking them with deep wounds. Throwing orbs or spears into wars aren't going to force them out of frenzy, because you just LoD. Overextending on wars is trivial now, because you are picking up LoDs. Killing an overextended war is near impossible because he is just picking up LoD support the entire time. The real skill that allowed players to sit in hyper offensive mode is LoD. For all its healing power, it also drastically cranked up teams ability to sit inside hyper offensive mode.

I haven't really seen anyone point to concrete LoD skills that have drastically increased the damage output.

----

So where is this supposed damage come from that can ONLY be dealt with by LoD??

----

Getting back to what Squidget talked about: The ether prod ele was actually AFAIK completely murdered by the YAA template. Right when nightfall came out, the YAA war with sig malice or mending touch basically demolished ether prod runners across the board, everywhere and anywhere.

The reason that heal party is not viable on flaggers is because condis cannot defend the base anymore. Not only is mending touch packed on every split, but you also have split chars packing dual 20% reduction blind and cripple runes, with one of each shield in their inv. Suddenly, it was impossible to defend the base with bflash.

----

Nerfing LoD had to happen. It was fun, but it had run its course. LoD wars is not the neccesarily the best template, and more and more, that is what the game degenerated into. The meta hasn't even had a chance to adjust yet, and people are making these really wide conclusions about what will happen.

----

One big thing people complain about with sins is how they instajib stuff. And what people dont like to talk about is how easily SoR runners neutralize any non dedicated split. Back in the day when teams ran 5 res sigs and no hard resses, forcing boosts made splitting itself effective. Today when you are playing against a team packing splinters, forcing boosts aint gonna cut it, you need to work up a legitimate NPC advantage. Warriors and Rangers have fits killing anything side the boat against a runner that has a bar devoted to stopping ganks. Sins actaully have a chance of killing that char.

For a while, it was pretty near impossible to push splits w/o running sins. And now I agree, if you are going to force runners to bring the heal parties, the buffs that allowed sins to fight ZB runners are going to put them completely out of whack when facing prodigy heal party eles.

And mending touch + rune reductiosn undoubtable makes bflash a lot weaker against splits. And undoubtably, when you punch LoD in the face, aspects of the game are going to be thrown out of whack. And undoubtably, its going to take a number of tweaks to get things working.

But just putting LoD back the way it was...... I jsut dont see how thats a solution to the current problems in the game.

Unless you particularly love LoD wars.

Legendary Shiz · Nov 09, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

hello im the Heal line im filled with stuff you dont really want ^^

hey im the prot line i can stop spikes, remove conditions well, reduce damage significantly and generally quick in doing so - oh btw i can heal like crazy too thanks to ZB

^while WoH may be better at healing than ZB you need to consider the fact its in a line which you really dont like to use.. Prot is a far superior line and while it might not heal as much as WoH that makes ZB better.

Meh, most people theorycrafting WoH builds have been saying you gotta use some small prots along with it. Not really a secret that prot line is better than heal line.

Bankai · Nov 09, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

The power creep is mainly in the form of Bsurge, Mesmers and paragons. Bsurge deals quite a lot of damage over time, that needs to be healed up with LoD (or you have to *gasp* spend energy) and is an easy way for eles to join in on spikes. Paragons are able to boost defense and offense, and deal a shitload of damage. I don't know a lot of stuff about mesmers, but as far as I know, stuff like Pspike and Shatter weren't run in ye olde days because they were too costly, and people preferred pdrain en drain enchantment. And HEV blasts teams. And so does esurge now.

All in all, back in ye olde days, most damage came from the warriors. Now, there's a lot of damage that doesn't come from the warriors but from a lot of other sources as well.

Pyro maniac · Nov 09, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

Have you watched observer in the past two months? Blockway has been everywhere. Massive bulkheads of team defense used to be the only way to survive for an extended period of time.

I did, but you must look at the meta just before this update:
there were some wards (actually just melee) on mesmers, but they ran e-surge as elite. Para's were spear mastery with cruel spear and vicious. Couldnt see any defensive skill.
As for the others, only blurred vision on ele runners were a tad defense, that's it. Blockway was 2 months ago